Nicola Harris (00:01.528)
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of The Economy of Soul. I am so excited and elated for you to meet my guest today. Dr. Kelsey Madeiros is an organized and organizational psychologist, an author, nailed it always, an author, a speaker, and she is the den leader. This is a
Kelsey (00:19.426)
Nail that.
Nicola Harris (00:29.998)
Powerhouse woman who I had the privilege of meeting in the south of France during our Elevate immersion, and since then have been completely and utterly obsessed with Dr. Kelsey's work. Now she will say that we can call her Kels, and so that's probably how I will refer to her throughout the rest of this, throughout the rest of this interview. But I want to talk about this. Like this is her book, Painted Wolves, who
Kelsey (00:48.654)
Just too
Nicola Harris (00:57.728)
Like this is it's extraordinary. And I love it so much because we are both leadership junkies from the perspective of how do we really need to show up in the world to achieve change and to really make an impact that feels like lasting and like a legacy. And this book really goes there in so many ways that are both refreshing and needed.
So we're gonna dive into it today. Welcome, Kells, to the podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you here. Thank you for taking the time. So, before we really get into it, I would love for you to just talk a little bit about your career and your journey. You are a professor at the University of Nebraska, you teach leadership, you are an organizational psychologist, which was like the thing I was obsessed with becoming until I realized that school is not for me and I dropped out.
Kelsey (01:54.005)
A lot of school. A lot of school.
Nicola Harris (01:56.418)
But it's a lot of school, it's a lot of school. But I would love for you to share just a little bit about how it is that you really landed in this work.
Kelsey (02:05.816)
Yeah, well, so first of all, thank you so much for having me. I have been equally obsessed with you and your work, not in a creepy way, just in like a lovely way. you know, whatever. and yeah, so as you said, I have a a PhD in organizational psychology and I really got into that because I started studying creativity as an undergraduate in yeah, Penn State.
Nicola Harris (02:11.501)
Kinda creepy, kinda luppy.
Kelsey (02:36.016)
And I like fell in love with the science of creativity, this idea of understanding how we can help people come up with better ideas in like a programmatic way and not just like, you know, whiteboards and markers, but like what really actually works to get people to have these brilliant ideas. and it was so, so, so much fun. And so that's what really propelled me on my journey to go to grad school. and as part of that, I you you choose a graduate advisor, right?
When you go to graduate school and you spend all your time being really mentored by this person, as well as classes and other things, but this person is really who you're going to study with. And he was also studying leadership and ethics at the time. And so I ended up studying creativity, ethics primarily, and then a little bit of leadership. And I remember when I started digging into the leadership literature, I was like, this is a bit boring.
And like a bit, like it's very like wordy, word salad y, like it's not really relatable, it's not really understandable. There's and so I and the other side of it as well, like so much of the research was written by men. Like men were doing the research and they were doing it about men as well. And then it was seemed to be written for men. And I was like, hang on, this is just like what? You know, there's something missing here. and
Nicola Harris (03:33.237)
Well.
Kelsey (04:02.594)
diversity, equity, inclusion was kind of just coming into our like very common language that we were us we starting to use it more and more frequently. And so I went to my advisor and I was like, hey, I want to study women in leadership. And I said it in a f to a few different people. And the reaction I got every time was no, that's a waste of your time. There's no difference. Don't do it. And
You know, you gave a really nice intro about me, but I have to say, like the one thing to know about me is if somebody tells me no, that's the exact thing I'm gonna go fucking do. Yes. So after being told multiple times, you know, no, don't do that, waste of time, not right. Like, don't bother. I was like, Well, I'm gonna make that my career. So then for the last
Nicola Harris (04:38.477)
Yeah. We're going there and we're gonna have receipts. Thank you very much. Yes.
Kelsey (04:59.352)
10 to 15 years, that's what I've been researching and really trying to understand. So that's how I've ended up with this book and where I'm at now.
Nicola Harris (05:08.631)
So talk to me a little bit about why women in leadership felt like the thing that really needed to be explored. And I mean, you've done so much research in your book around female leaders that are, you know, have such prevalent and important stories. So was that just like an inner drive because you didn't see women out there being profiled in the same way?
Kelsey (05:33.411)
Yeah, well I think there's two sides to that coin. So from like an academic research standpoint, I was reading and I was like, this doesn't resonate. This isn't my experience, or this is missing like a really big barrier, you know, that women experience and this doesn't account for that. Like, how does that this doesn't work for me or for any of my girlfriends? so that's problematic. And then with the studying the profiles of women in this book, it was the women who were head of state during
COVID-19 for those who haven't read the book. and it was around that same time where we were really starting to pay attention to them. The media was starting to say, like, hey, these countries seem to be really doing really well on the metrics we were all really familiar with at the time. and what's going on? And so the headlines were all about, you know, women-led countries are doing well. And it seems to be that these countries are doing well. And I'm like, hang on.
Is not the country's doing well. Like these women are doing some really good stuff. Let's look into it and try to understand what they're doing and to raise that profile. Not just, the women seem to be doing really well. That's cool. Like what are they doing really well and what can we take from them?
Nicola Harris (06:47.233)
Hmm. And like it it's drilled down in such a beautiful way that there's so many incredible takeaways, I think, for anyone in leadership. And and that, you know, the premise of obviously how I wrote Behave, and I I and I feel like the premise of of how you also wrote Painted Wolves is that leadership is really for all of us. You know, it this it has been, it has been sort of made out to be this like, you know.
Kelsey (07:08.867)
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (07:15.681)
When you get to the top here, here's what you're gonna need. And it's like, no, we as women, especially, really we can cultivate the this understanding of our own strengths and skill set and how we impact our worlds. So I I also love because I felt like it was so similar to how I wrote Behave. And I was just laughing as I was rereading it this morning.
Kelsey (07:37.838)
Ha ha
Nicola Harris (07:42.242)
it's really broken down into a set of many principles or just ideas around what it is that we need to integrate. So let's talk a little bit first about what principle or or what how whatever language you use to describe them feels really important to women now who are in or who are craving more leadership in their lives.
Kelsey (08:07.296)
It's such a good question and it's a really hard one to answer. And there's a couple of things that come to mind. And the first two that really come to mind, and I'm I have three that are coming to mind. I'll s I'll just briefly talk about the first two. and then really dive into the third is this idea of like a collectivism, which you talk about in your book as well, right? This kind of what is the outcome we're striving for and really thinking about the group, and then also
Nicola Harris (08:11.063)
Yeah, for sure.
Kelsey (08:36.964)
you know, there was this idea that the women who went into politics in these leadership roles that I was looking at were really driven by a particular issue. They wanted to solve a problem. They didn't want the power. And so I could talk about that all day. But I think actually that's a strength we as women tend to have. Like we tend to think about the collective, whether that's socialized or because we're born that way is kind of irrelevant to the discussion. We do. And so
Nicola Harris (09:04.706)
Mm-hmm.
Kelsey (09:05.09)
We have that and we do see a lot of problem solvers kind of I'm they're women tend to be more motivated by something, right? Taking action or rather than, I want to be powerful and in charge, mostly because we're punished for those feelings, right? And we've learned to suppress those. And so I think those are really important and I didn't want to miss them because you talk about them explicitly in your book as well. But the one that really, really stands out to me and the conversations I've been having a lot with women are around risk taking.
Nicola Harris (09:13.207)
Right.
Nicola Harris (09:19.905)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (09:27.703)
Right.
Kelsey (09:35.545)
And I think you talk about courage in your book, which there's a lot of alignment between those two, right? but the and there's a bit of trusting yourself. So what I mean by that is when we talk about risk taking, so often we associate that with men, right? Because we were told men are bigger risk takers. Men do X, Y, and Z, and they're more likely to, you know, take the risk and go out and do the big thing. And so therefore, it's often concluded women don't make good leaders. but there's so much.
Nicola Harris (09:37.707)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (10:02.559)
Mm.
Kelsey (10:05.762)
bias in the way that risk taking is measured and talked about. It's talked about in ways of like, who's more likely to ride a motorcycle without a helmet? Well first of all, who's more likely to ride a motorcycle? Period, right? Who's more likely to ride in a car without a seatbelt? Well who's more likely to die in a car because they're not with with or without a seatbelt because they're not made or tested on our bodies? Women, right?
Nicola Harris (10:21.921)
Ooh, yeah.
Nicola Harris (10:34.763)
Mm.
Kelsey (10:35.692)
There's all these really interesting ways that risk taking gets assessed that's actually not representative of the risks women tend to take. So things like report how like if you change that and you say, How likely are you to report the sexual harassment you've experienced or someone else in the workplace that you know has experienced? The conversation probably changes a bit, right? How likely are you to stand up for someone else if it puts you at risk?
Nicola Harris (10:44.905)
Ooh, I love that.
Nicola Harris (10:59.447)
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Mm. Mm. It's so hard. Yeah, it's so hard for women. Yeah.
Kelsey (11:04.928)
It changes quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a lot of research that shows that women are actually big rich stakers when it helps someone else. So we know that women are more likely to be live kidney donors. Women are more were more likely during the Holocaust to help people escape. women are more likely to join the Peace Corps.
So there's all these things when you look at like, well, what what is risk taking? What is risky behavior? women are more likely to engage in that. And so there's that that's a little bit of background. But why I say that is because I think we need to trust ourselves a little bit more with that courage, right? Like we know what's worth taking a risk for, and it's not like money, to be frank, right? It's yeah.
Nicola Harris (11:57.43)
Mm-hmm. Or status or yeah. Yeah.
Kelsey (12:02.038)
It's the safety and security and the the flourishing and well-being of ourselves and other people, right? Of our community, of our families, of our the world. and so I think that's a message that's really important to hear that. Like you you can take risks and you do know what is worth taking those risks for and trusting that intuition and not really listening to the, well, you're not you're not leadership material because you you aren't a risk taker. It's like, no, actually, I take
really smart risks that are gonna benefit everyone and that's incredibly valuable. So I think that's a message because it's so just so much noise around risky behavior these days. And I I'm just tired of the risks I see people taking in leadership.
Nicola Harris (12:36.599)
Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (12:46.263)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and it's it's fascinating because I I mean, obviously in my work as well, you know, as we are leaning into the nervous system, what I call the edge, I believe that every time someone is willing to expand into a new comfort zone, that is a risk that they are taking. And you're right, it's not interpreted in the same way out there. It's become very much like courage, like some bravado thing that.
Kelsey (13:06.072)
Yeah. A hundred percent.
Nicola Harris (13:15.829)
you know, is externally focused instead of internally imprinted into the world. And I I love that you chose risk taking because I I said at the start of this conversation that I wasn't gonna like, you know, I wasn't gonna make it go in a certain direction. But that was the chapter that I had flagged is like, I love this because I think as women we still hold ourselves back a lot around
Taking a risk or being recognized as someone who is a risk taker because we are also often in nurturing roles and we are in, you know, caring for our families, caring for others. Do you have a piece of advice for a woman who is maybe sort of playing or toying with the idea of taking something that she deems as
Kelsey (13:50.232)
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (14:14.155)
risky and how could she approach it in a way that you know allows her to really anchor into the impact that it is that she wants to make.
Kelsey (14:28.586)
that's a that's a toughie. But I think I'm having two two responses. I think the first is really more centered around that impact and like the feeling that comes with that of risky. It's risky, but you know it's good, right? And it's hard to it's hard to just be like, okay, I'm gonna go for it. But I think about so I'm facing a situation like that at the moment.
Nicola Harris (14:31.485)
Ha ha
Nicola Harris (14:35.949)
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (14:44.013)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (14:55.341)
Mm.
Kelsey (14:55.462)
it's not a bad one, it's a good kind of risk, right? That I'm kind of excited about. But I think about that that tension that I feel in the moment. And I think about how the conversations I've had with the other women I work with and how my gut reaction is like, girl, you've got this. Take that risk. I don't say that to myself. So I think there's a bit of what would you say to your bestie, right? Like, what are you telling her? Is you're telling her, Go for it. Like, you know, whether it's good or bad, like
Nicola Harris (15:11.501)
Mm.
Nicola Harris (15:19.035)
I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelsey (15:24.94)
look at the impact you're gonna make with that. You've gotta do it. Like and I'm backing you and I support you. Like have that conversation with yourself. And then I think the flip side of that is also like sometimes it can be helpful to put on a bit of armor or like a little bit of a like pretend you're someone else, like a little bit dissociate, right? like no, I'm I yeah, like you are talking to someone else, but you are in your body, right? That sounds a bit strange, but
Nicola Harris (15:42.783)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (15:52.622)
Mm-hmm. Well, and it's like future the future, and I mean the language I use on that is like the future version of myself. It's like what would she encourage me? How would she lead me forward through this? And you know, what I see in myself and you know, as I'm making what would be considered risky decisions, and in the way that my clients are choosing their risky decisions.
Kelsey (16:06.017)
Exactly.
Nicola Harris (16:19.509)
To me, it's always like if there's that inherent yes within, you know, your soul, within your heart, with with where it is that feels so incredibly right, it's like the risk, the tension point ends up just mostly being fear. And there's so much wrapped in that, for sure. But it's like if you can isolate that, and I love that because it is really a future version of you being like, hey, like you do have you.
Kelsey (16:35.161)
Yeah.
Kelsey (16:46.722)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Nicola Harris (16:47.809)
You know, at the end of the day. So yeah, that's so important. Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. Let's talk a little bit about the name of this book. Because when I saw this, I was like, okay, like I I need to know all the details of how and of course you tell the story at the very beginning of the book. and it's I I just love this story so much. First of all, because it was your lived experience.
Kelsey (17:05.749)
Ha ha.
Nicola Harris (17:17.397)
And also the way that it translates into the reality of what is happening out in the world is just like, dang girl, like you couldn't have it couldn't have been more poetic, really. so why don't you tell everyone a little bit about that story?
Kelsey (17:34.329)
Yeah, absolutely. so I was on safari in South Africa, not to brag, but that's where I was. I was on a lovely holiday in South Africa, and we were going out on our morning game drive to look at the animals and see what we could see. It's like five in the morning, it's very early, not my favorite type of day. and so we we go out, we get in the safari car, and Joe, our safari guy,
Nicola Harris (17:41.729)
Mm-hmm. We break here, that's okay.
Kelsey (18:04.714)
is like, right, we there's been some sightings of lions. We're gonna go check them out. I'm like, amazing, right? Like this is gonna be so cool. And so we go, we find the lions, and it turns out they're just like lying around quite lazy, kind of taking a nap. very much what I wanted to be doing at six AM.
Nicola Harris (18:26.524)
Ha ha ha
Kelsey (18:29.26)
Just hanging out, and we're sitting there for quite a while, and he's talking about the lions and the things that they do and you know, just kind of their lifestyle, I guess. Is that how you say lion lifestyle? Sure, we'll go with that. when all of a sudden a baby Impala, which if you're not familiar with Impala, they're like baby deer or they're deer, but this was a baby one. So a baby Impala comes out of the the bush and
All of us kind of turn our heads immediately, right? To look at this little baby because it's rustling, like, cute. But you know who else also saw the baby Impala? Were these three lions? And you could just see the moment, like our heads click, see this baby, and then the lions, they click and see this baby. So then there's a chase. So the lions go chasing after this baby Impala who's literally running for its life at like three days old. And us in this safari car behind it, like bumping along through the bush.
Chasing it, like what's gonna happen? It felt like a nature documentary. Like I needed David Attenborough to be like, and then Kelsey was terrified. but we went we we followed them along, followed them along until it finally ended. And the lions had caught the baby and Paula and they were having a snack, and you know that's not the nicest thing to watch, but it's also incredible in in a lot of ways.
Nicola Harris (19:29.729)
Me
Kelsey (19:54.755)
And so we're sitting there and everyone's kind of taking this in. And and Joe turns around and he goes, you know, just randomly, does not know I teach business or anything. Turns around and goes, you know, business people are always saying leaders need to be more like lions. But they that's a terrible analogy. Lions are selfish. Whoever makes the kill keep it, keeps it, which we were seeing one of the lions had caught the impala and was not sharing with the others.
Nicola Harris (20:22.589)
Yeah.
Kelsey (20:23.276)
It's only once there's something, if there's leftovers that they'll then share. they're selfish, they're lazy, they really don't really go after anything unless it's like right in front of them. And they're really ineffective hunters. So they make they catch their kill only about 20% of the time or so. So they're terrible role models. Like, why would we tell people to be like this? What makes a much better role model are painted wolves.
And I was sitting there like at the back of the car, just like, my God, are you serious? Right? Like there's like this profound lesson. Nobody else is really I think nobody else clocked it, right? But I immediately got back and I started writing and I started reading about Painted Wolves. And sure enough, like they're they're super collective. So they always work together when they're
Nicola Harris (20:59.735)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelsey (21:16.792)
Going out on a hunt. They each have individualized roles, even to the point if someone is injured or there's a baby that someone needs to stay back with, they will stay back in those formal roles and they'll bring them food back. It's a bit gross, I won't describe how, but they do. and they're very organized, like they always have a plan. and they also are excellent communicators. So they they sneeze.
Nicola Harris (21:32.461)
Ha ha ha
Kelsey (21:41.487)
during their hunts and that's how they they communicate with each one another. So they're always planning, always coordinating, always organizing, and always looking out for one another. They have that three musketeers mentality, researchers say. And and because of it, they're just super effective. They make they catch their kill like almost 80% of the time, which is just so cool. And so much better than lions. And so
It just resonated and just hit home. And then I think when you think about that even more, right, and extend to the image of a lion, it's this big, majestic, like look at me and my beautiful mane character. Whereas I've arrived. I love that. I'm gonna use that, yeah.
Nicola Harris (22:16.557)
Like huge ego coming to the big big main energy of like Jesse, right?
Kelsey (22:30.06)
But ex exactly versus a painted wolf, which people are like, a what? And it's just this much more this they're also known as African wild dogs. You probably have seen them at the zoo, but maybe by a different name. but they're just not as talked about as much. And they're a little bit quieter, they're a little bit more subtle in their approach, but hey, they're really effective. So that's how the name came to be.
Nicola Harris (22:55.979)
Yeah, and and as a leadership model, it's like I understand how you were like, wow, okay, uh-huh. That is something. Like there is something there to unpack, quote unquote. No pun pun intended. But the way that we have been taught leadership and the way that the models of leadership have grown over the past, you know, who knows how long, because I'm not in research, but
Kelsey (23:09.44)
Yeah.
Kelsey (23:25.613)
A long time.
Nicola Harris (23:25.825)
Like we've a long time, we've only ever been told that the lion is how we approach business, leadership, climbing the corporate ladder, like anything that externally is validated, it is through that model. So I wanna know like how you've used this information or how you desire to use this information to start to shift.
Or really like, you know, I don't I don't want to say like fight that model, but in a way I do sort of want to say like, like, how how are you bringing this new evolution of leadership out into your world through that idea of really creating a pattern?
Kelsey (24:16.204)
Yeah. Well, I think it is a fight. Like and I don't think we should really shy away from that language because it's like excellent, I'm ready
Nicola Harris (24:19.661)
Excellent. Next we're ready. Well we say to each other, we ride it, Dawn. That is. We ride it, Dawn. It is.
Kelsey (24:28.728)
You write it dog. And it really it really is that energy, right? And I have so much I have you to thank for so much of that and realizing it. You know, I think as we've talked about when I first started this work, I thought I was like, I'm just developing leaders. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. We're really changing the way we think about leadership and what it means to be a good leader. And I am like full transparency still trying to understand, you know, how you do that. but I think it starts
For sure with a pack, as that as you talked about. because individually that feels hard and that feels really heavy, right? And it does feel like almost an impossible fight. I feel that sometimes, you know, I'll be like, what am I doing? This is too hard. And because that and you imagine a w your woman just trying to go to work and make a paycheck. You're like, I don't want to I'm not trying to fight the system today. I'm just trying to get enough to have breakfast or
Nicola Harris (25:11.597)
Mm-hmm.
Kelsey (25:26.434)
you know, food on the table for my kids or to do that activity or pay for soccer, whatever. so I I just lost my train of thought because I was like, what are all these things we pay for at the moment? but but the reality is yeah it does feel like a fight and sometimes that can feel too heavy. And so when you bring women together, right, it can lighten the the heaviness of that a bit because you see other people doing it. And you talked about this in your book around
Nicola Harris (25:30.978)
Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (25:36.109)
That's okay.
Right?
Kelsey (25:55.011)
You know, you just need 10% of people to really start shift for an idea to take off. And there's new research as well that shows if you're in the minority group, you just need twenty-five percent of people and the the opinion totally shifts. You can topple it basically. So 10% and you're like starting to catch wildfire. Catch wildfire, catch on like wildfire, catch fire. Yeah, okay, yes.
Nicola Harris (26:06.573)
Amazing. Yeah.
Nicola Harris (26:13.537)
Yeah. Yep. Yep. We're burning it. That's we're burning it. That's the main message here is that it's getting burnt.
Kelsey (26:24.942)
Ten percent and things will burn to the ground and then twenty-five percent and things really start to change. And so like that's really inspiring. And when you think about that, when you have the the pack, you can really do that. Now I think there's a risk in that approach that I am very, very conscious of, which this is a systemic issue. And so we don't want to t you know, we know individual approaches to systemic issues is not the way to go. So we also have to think about how do we
Nicola Harris (26:27.401)
Exactly.
Kelsey (26:55.234)
you know, extend that pack to I hate to say it, but like to help men change, you know, and to extend that conversation beyond these packs of women where we can feel comfortable and go and fight. But the reality is is they still hold the bulk of the power. we still live in a patriarchal world. So how do we start to shift that and their mindsets as well and bring them along for that journey.
Nicola Harris (27:00.085)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Kelsey (27:20.67)
Because the world gets better for all of us, not just not just for women, right? It gets better for men, everyone as as well. So
Nicola Harris (27:24.896)
yeah.
Well, I mean, the patriarchy impacts both men and women. It's like men have been brought up in it with this also very specific ideology of how it is that they're meant to show up within, you know, their own leadership, which has been to the detriment of them as well in many, many scenarios, right? So I love I love, love, love that because I think the more that we have these conversations.
Kelsey (27:31.789)
Yeah.
Kelsey (27:47.459)
Exactly.
Nicola Harris (27:56.62)
really holistically to anyone who feels like wait a minute I'm just I'm just not entirely sure if this is really it you know I'm just not entirely sure we've been led to the place where you know it makes a lot of sense and and female male it doesn't really matter at the end of the day I think what matters non binary yes
Kelsey (28:20.526)
Non binary or non controlled all of us.
Nicola Harris (28:24.691)
All of us it what matters is that the conversation is happening, I think, and that we you know, I I mean, I've been labeled a shit disturber by my many, many different people in my life because I do I love to say the thing. I love to call it out, I love to say this isn't really working, this is ego based, this is like not and I used to work in a lot of environments where I would need to have that conversation more often than I do now.
Kelsey (28:36.16)
That's a great label.
Nicola Harris (28:54.295)
But I did get exhausted by having that conversation and often thought, well, am I really, am I really changing anything by trying to change them? So instead, I thought, actually, I think what I'm going to do, which is sort of what I see you doing now, is find the people who are really excited and feel actually like that is part of their work here.
Kelsey (29:02.34)
Mm who
Nicola Harris (29:24.481)
To shift that conversation, to get curious about it, to show up differently around the corporate tables, around, you know, conversations that they're having even within their own marriages, around what that looks like. And, you know, I see you building this opportunity for women to be able to do that. So I would love for you to talk to us a little bit about what the den is, the pack that you're
really building and the impact that you're really hoping to make with it.
Kelsey (29:58.861)
Yeah, I I love that you talked about having these conversations around tables because I think that's so important as well. And you're doing this work also, right? Of like taking these these topics that are often felt or often feel very removed or like they have a space, like it's corporate space that we talk about leadership or yeah, that they just have their place somewhere. But really to bring that to
Nicola Harris (30:03.597)
Mm.
Nicola Harris (30:17.677)
Mm.
Kelsey (30:26.614)
more com spaces where we actually have real conversations like around the dinner table with our friends, with our partners, with our kids, even. I think that's really important. And so that's exactly what the den's goal is is to really bring those conversations to an accessible and comfortable and fun place where women can feel comfortable opening up and sharing like, hey, this is what I'm going through.
Nicola Harris (30:46.935)
Mm-hmm.
Kelsey (30:54.686)
in the same breath as like, my god, I did that fucking thing. Right. And I nailed that. Yeah. Exactly. Ex and like brag and be proud of yourself. That's hard as women. That's hard to do that. at least for some of us. For most of us, I think.
Nicola Harris (30:58.598)
Yeah, like yeah.
Yes, yes.
Nicola Harris (31:11.095)
Yeah. For most of us, I I would say the majority for sure. Yeah.
Kelsey (31:15.404)
Yeah. and so it's that space. And so with that, we have bring in experts. You were one of these lovely experts to come in and share about experience, their research, their work, where we can learn and grow from that, as well as social hours where we can just kind of chit chat and there's no agenda. And when I first started hosting those, I was like,
Nicola Harris (31:34.039)
Mm-hmm.
Kelsey (31:39.306)
What am I gonna do? Right. And I even made a fake little like personal agenda because I was like, what if this goes what if nobody talks? What am I gonna do? Like, what an idiot. Of course, like you get five to ten women in a room and we're all gonna talk
Nicola Harris (31:51.349)
Yeah. We're all gonna talk. We all got something to say. Always. Yeah.
Kelsey (31:55.777)
Yeah. And so those have been some of like the most inspiring conversations as well. Cause you you know, we talk about the tough stuff and the wins and we talk about all of it. And then we talk about like trash TV and you know what we're doing and nothing's off the table with those. and then the pack is more one on one kind of coaching approach. So it's more of you have a specific goal you really want to work towards, whether that's leadership, career change, going back to work. kind of seen
Nicola Harris (32:01.248)
Mm-hmm.
Kelsey (32:24.79)
a loads of different experiences and goals recently. so yeah so I think that's that's the overarching kind of what that looks like. But the ultimate goal is to really have those conversations. And I think I said it the other night, you know, smash the patriarchy change the world. So yeah, it's so simple. I when I first wrote that down, I w I thought of the Elle Woods quote where she's like what? Like it's hard
Nicola Harris (32:42.935)
Mm-hmm. So simple. So simple.
Nicola Harris (32:50.859)
Yeah, like like it's hard. I just feel like you are gonna be saying that at some point, be like it was that hard. Wasn't that hard. But you know, and I I think that as you're like maneuvering through your life and your day to day, you're you've got all these things. You've got work commitments, you've got life commitments, you're you know, you may or may not have children. It's like you're out here navigating life, right? And I think that.
Kelsey (32:56.384)
Linard.
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (33:16.787)
Sometimes they're like, smash the patriarchy. Like I'm exhausted. I do not have like the capacity to do that. Like that sounds cool, but like someone's else is gonna have to like pick up the tab on that one because like I'm I'm tapped. I'm tired, right? Like we we've been fighting a a hard fight for quite a while, right? It's like when you look at you know, feminism and and
Kelsey (33:30.74)
Yeah. I'm tired.
Nicola Harris (33:42.934)
female empowerment and things that like as we've moved really the dial on how it is that we get to show up. It there's been a lot of work that's been done over the last, you know, few decades. But I would love for you to speak to the woman who's like, I want to do what I can in my life. Maybe I can't impact like, you know, the whole world. We'll leave that up to Kels. But but like what can I do?
Kelsey (34:08.66)
Ha.
Nicola Harris (34:13.175)
Today, what can I shift in my own leadership, in my own life that is gonna impact that like ripple of the 25%?
Kelsey (34:24.694)
It's you've you're just full of good questions today. It's life a great podcast or something.
Nicola Harris (34:27.309)
I it's like I cannot ever, I cannot ever write questions ahead of time because it will just never flow in the same way. You know? It I just have to wing it. I just have to wing it over here. Thank you.
Kelsey (34:39.542)
Amazing. But you're great at it.
Kelsey (34:47.074)
It's a great question. I know I already said that, but I feel like I I need a second. because I think there's a lot of little things that we can do within ourselves. And I'm gonna just plug your book because as I was reading your book, I was like highlighting every question and like circling it, like come back to this. You know, read this question and think about this at the end of the day or the beginning of the day. Because it all starts internally, right? So like.
When we talk about fighting the patriarchy or whatever, we hold so much of that within ourselves. Like just starting and being like, What you ask these questions, you know, why did I show up the way that I did today? Or why did I do that thing? Like I'm not sure. And so I think just pausing and like being a little bit more self-reflected every every day, even if it's five minutes, goes a long way. You know, it doesn't
For some people, it will be things like speak up for the person, you know, in the room, whose vo whose idea just got taken over and restated by a man and everyone said it was brilliant and just got ignored, right? And you could say you could speak up for that person. you can be really loud, right? And be like, no, that needs to change, you know, you could be a what did you call yourself? A shit stirrer or a shit disturber. Like I love it.
Nicola Harris (36:04.053)
A shit disturber, yeah. I think I'm gonna get a shirt with it on, actually. Like you know. Yeah, I think we you know, I think there are some of us who could wear that proudly. It's not an insult. It's not an insult.
Kelsey (36:09.998)
Then I would also like one.
Kelsey (36:15.364)
Maybe it should be your next too.
but that role is not for everyone, right? That it it does take a lot of like, ugh. even for me, like it takes a lot to to have those conversations. And so I think starting with yourself is the best place to start. And when you're tired, you know, of saying like five minutes, I'm just gonna think about the way that went today and what happened and maybe how do I wanna show up differently tomorrow? And not like dramatically, like I'm a new person tomorrow, just like.
Nicola Harris (36:23.338)
Mm-hmm. No, totally. Yeah.
Nicola Harris (36:29.517)
Mm-hmm. yeah.
Kelsey (36:50.174)
I said yes to that thing today that I didn't really want to do. Maybe tomorrow when someone asks me, I'm gonna take five minutes and think about that before I do that. You know, it's like little things like that that can also that are actually really big things, but can make a big difference.
Nicola Harris (36:58.997)
Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (37:05.291)
Yeah, I love that. I I talk a lot about micro moves, especially in the House of Moore, because it's like, again, this idea of like grandiosism. Like, is that even a word grandiosism? I'm not sure, but I just made it up. But it's like these, these grand, right? Yeah, we're also putting that on the t-shirt. Like these like massive overnight success stories. It's like, yeah, it's not built there. It's not, that's not.
Kelsey (37:08.899)
Yeah.
Kelsey (37:19.564)
Definitely is. We're putting that on a t shirt.
Kelsey (37:31.822)
No.
Nicola Harris (37:33.416)
It that's not it, and yet we've pedestaled that in the same way that we've pedestaled the lion as the leadership example, but ultimately it is those like nuanced, tiny, almost invisible reflection points or shifts that you're willing to make in your own life that I believe equal like huge change, huge change.
Kelsey (37:39.32)
Yeah. Exactly.
Kelsey (37:48.334)
Mm.
Kelsey (37:56.835)
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (38:00.566)
And like I love that you said, like, wait a minute, did I say yes to something that I really meant no to? Am I being more polite than, you know, because gosh, women, I I mean, just all the time, like, you know, you gotta be polite. Well, do we do we have to be polite or or are we allowed to have boundaries, you know? And that is, it it feels edgy sometimes to start practicing in that way.
Kelsey (38:18.53)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelsey (38:24.067)
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (38:27.637)
And I agree, I don't think it always has to be loud. And I think there are those of us who are willing to speak up in in situations where things are are going south, but I don't think it has to start there by any means. I I love that you bring in self first because it really is, I I think the internal landscape of looking at the conditioning that we've been raised in, looking at the societal conditioning of what's been expected.
As female leaders. You know, it's like if we if we are, you know, loud or if we are putting up boundaries, if we are questioning authority, all of a sudden we're labeled as a bitch. And, you know, and it's just like actually, it's like, actually, I'm just being a leader. I'm just being a leader. But that looks different as a woman because I agree, I think like.
Kelsey (39:14.38)
Yeah.
Kelsey (39:19.758)
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (39:25.835)
We are looking at the collective as a whole much more so than men have in the past because of that patriarchal conditioning. And so I yeah.
Kelsey (39:41.965)
tag on to that that I think there's something that's so important about that inner work as well that ben that is fruitful for the collective right because it sometimes feels like well doing inner work like okay so I changed me or like I'm helping myself make a make a change but am I really making a difference in the bigger thing big grand scheme of things and and you are right because if you start doing that someone else sees you do that they are gonna feel like
Nicola Harris (40:08.802)
Bingo.
Kelsey (40:10.474)
damn, she did that. I can do it too, right? And I think you also gain a little bit of courage each time you do it, right? Because you see, I survived. Like I said no and didn't die. Or didn't get fired or whatever, right? Like I'm fine. That in that kind of fight or flight, I think gets quieter over time because you your body learns like, I don't have to be scared of that anymore. And then it creates this quite a a
Nicola Harris (40:23.199)
I didn't die. Yeah, yes.
Kelsey (40:39.288)
philosophical argument, but I think it creates alignment in you. So like I can say, I want to fight the patriarchy, right? But until I really believe that and understand in myself what I have internalized, like me standing up for it is gonna feel a little, I don't even say edgy, I don't think is the right word. It's gonna feel like icky almost. Because it's like Yeah, exactly. And so the more you work do you do that inner work, A, the more it
Nicola Harris (40:59.179)
Mm. Yeah, it's gonna feel like a nine one one. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kelsey (41:09.088)
it trickles down and spreads to other women. But I think also the more you'll be able to do other work and have the energy for it because it's exhausting when you're fighting yourself as well as the patriarchy.
Nicola Harris (41:16.894)
Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (41:23.653)
that's I love that. That's so beautiful. And you know, I I come from the place of I've done in inner work my entire adult life. Like I I was obsessed in high school with personal development and and I've never stopped. Like it's just been a love affair of my entire life. But I never approached it in a way that I need like something was wrong with me. I never approached it in a way like I needed to.
change or fix something within myself, but actually that I needed to strip away. I needed to like release some of the bullshit I picked up along the way. You know? And it's like I still, I still pick up bullshit. Like it's not that you ever become like Teflon from it, you know? Like I I hope to get to that stage at some point where it's like ding. And but it's like that recognizing that
Kelsey (42:09.956)
There's a lot out there.
Kelsey (42:16.9)
Yeah.
Nicola Harris (42:21.523)
Every time I do inner work, every time I look at myself, that is the ripple effect that is impacting my children, the community, like my network of where I, you know, plug in, plug out, people that I meet, obviously what people see on social media in terms of how I teach and how I show up. And I think that's where women thrive. You know, I think that's where.
we have this incredible opportunity that we get to be a part of the twenty five percent. You know, that we we get to be a part of the twenty five percent by allowing ourselves the gift of really letting the shit go that we picked up along the way.
Kelsey (43:04.75)
Yeah. And how cool is that?
Nicola Harris (43:08.269)
How cool is that? Like, yeah, it's a fucking gift.
Kelsey (43:09.796)
How cool is that? It's so exciting, I think, when you think about it that way. Like I know we say, like, we gotta fight the patriarchy. And like there is something really energizing about that. But there's the flip side of it, and again, I think back to your book and the where you talked about joy and the importance of that. You know, I think there is a lot of joy in like shedding that and getting rid of the bullshit because you can be more joyful because you're not like, I've got all this stuff and all these internalized misogyny in my head and that comes.
Nicola Harris (43:15.147)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nicola Harris (43:24.557)
Hm.
Nicola Harris (43:29.979)
yeah.
Nicola Harris (43:37.961)
Yes. Ugh.
Kelsey (43:38.98)
right at me and be like actually life is this is great. Like look at look at who I am and look at this impact and look at the change we're making. Like that's exciting.
Nicola Harris (43:44.086)
It's great.
Nicola Harris (43:48.136)
Yeah. it's so good. It's so good. I feel like you and I could talk for like a hundred years. But I just feel like that's the most beautiful place to leave it off because if you if if anyone listening feels like they are ready to hop into that, I just feel like your community is such a beautiful place to begin.
Kelsey (43:54.561)
Yes.
Nicola Harris (44:14.091)
So I will drop all the information in the show notes so that you can check out the den and who Kells is, because she's just an absolute gem of a human. And I will also link the book because it was such a beautiful read. And you have so many fun examples and like stories to tell. And that was like my one of my favorite parts. I mean, I love the research as well, but like you just have such a
fun way of approaching such a huge topic. And I do love that sentiment that it gets to be fun. It gets to be joyful. It gets to be something that makes you feel more alive day in and day out. And we need you, you know, we need everyone. We we need people to create this collective remembrance of how it is that we want to live and lead our lives. So thank you for the work that you are doing. I I like
Kelsey (44:45.54)
Thank you.
Nicola Harris (45:11.071)
It's so deeply important. So deeply important. And I know that you are going to be s part of so much change that you're never even gonna really fully understand because of the ripple effect that is going to come from all of the people that you impact. So thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you. I just it's right. It's just it's beautiful work. It's beautiful work. So thank you. Yeah.
Kelsey (45:27.842)
You're gonna make me cry. Thank you. Yeah. Well, right back at you because so much I have need thank as well for so much of the inspiration and the guidance and the joy. So yeah, if anybody's interested or just wants to say hello, please just say hello.
Nicola Harris (45:44.205)
Mm-hmm.
Nicola Harris (45:48.555)
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and taking the time. Love you and appreciate you. And I will, as I said, put all of Kel's information down below and you can connect with her on multiple different platforms. But thank you so much for joining us today and we will see you again next week.
Kelsey (45:54.35)
Things are happy.
